I know as the person that runs this website you feel discussions should be open and free without any judgment, but it just isn't like that. Things you say on here have real world implications about the way your group is perceived and treated. It's no different than somebody in an Urbandale shirt sitting in the audience bad-mouthing other groups. If it happens (and I pray that it doesn't) it's frowned upon and seen as bad sportsmanship and, in my opinion, it should be.
There's nothing wrong with being proud of your own group. Praise away. I hope everyone involved in show choir is proud of their own group's ability and accomplishments. I do have a problem when people with a dog in the fight come on here to argue that their group's placement was incorrect, which was really the point at the heart of this person's post. Boiled down to its essence this post said, "The judges were wrong. What we do is better and should have been rewarded as such. Props and theatrics are used to cover for a lack of talent....but no offense."
I guess I just didn't see him call out Urbandale individually, and your original reply made it seem to me like you were taking offense to the remark as it applied to Studio. If his comment was truly directed toward Hastings - and that's the way you interpreted it - then your reply was as vague as his post. I honestly just took it as someone who was bitter that his group didn't place higher and this was the way he chose to vent about it. I am not defending the manner in which he chose to express himself; I just think we should try to understand where he's coming from first before creating a firestorm out of it. Literally the only two critical things he stated were "it seems to be less about the talent and more about the bells and whistles or how loud a group is," and "I have to give a shout out to Omaha Westside for earning their placements on awe-inspiring vocals and show execution rather than loud props and theatrics." It's beyond clear that all of the top placing groups at this competition are exceptionally talented, so to me it just came across as laughable and dismissable.
It seems like a lot of people are on pins and needles lately, and I feel like we should just need to take a deep breath and when a questionable post comes up, try to talk it out instead of just reacting angrily or defensively to it. I made a similar post just the other day about this here. Your comment about how this "must not an ATSC member, but rather a frustrated fan" is what concerns me the most. Do you really believe that Doran Johnson's "attention to detail" is going to prevent all of his students from ever being poor sports or being "sour grapes" 100% of the time, no matter what? There seems to be this notion that a "good director" will either ensure that every one of his or her high school aged students never says anything but the most lifeless objective statements on showchoir.com, or just won't let them participate at all. What's really sad to me is I know there are literally hundreds of students out there who would add some fantastic things to the discussion but will never take the opportunity because they're too afraid of reaping consequences if they do. That goes beyond frustration for me; I find it completely contradictory to a teacher's role of preparing and coaching a student for life - not closing them off from it. The whole point of this website is to come and discuss. People are going to come with different points of view. We know that. We are prepared for that. So let's discuss in as civil a way as possible. Yes, there are outbursts and just completely nonsense posts from time to time. The vast majority of contributors to the site are high school students. It's going to happen. But in my opinion, we do a darned good job of dealing with issues when they arise and redirecting discussions in a positive manner. Have you been to the rest of the internet lately? I promise you there are far worse comments being made on Facebook.
You have always been a class act and I have enjoyed your contributions here. My intent was not to make our discussion the focus of this topic. I just feel that these threads are what we make of them,
and how we react is important as what the other guy says. There will always be people with a "dog in the fight" to discuss placements, because that's what people want to talk about. Show choir has for ages been set up as a competition; like sports or anything else with a team or group to get behind, people get passionate about it. Sometimes they don't channel that passion in the best of ways. But we can fight that anger with more anger and sarcasm or we can try to understand it and work with it. It's definitely a choice. My original reply to you was simply trying to diffuse some of that anger and be realistic about the fact that anyone who has seen any of these groups knows that there's a lot more to them than "theatrics and loud props." If someone actually took what that person said to heart and decides to be judgmental about any of these programs, then I guess you're right... they probably shouldn't be on SCC. I just give people more credit than that.
You know the more I think about it, the more this post feels like it was probably made by another Omaha Westside student or parent and not a member of ATSC.
Doran Johnson is a class act and his attention to detail doesn't begin and end on the stage. I'm sure he has discussed with the members of his group how they should comport themselves on this site. I'm going to give the benefit of the doubt and assume this was not an ATSC member, but rather a frustrated fan.
As I read the post, I too thought of putting 'Urbandale' with 'bells and whistles' and 'props' in the same sentence contradicted each other. Urbandale above any other group I've ever seen is the one group that has never relied on any extra properties other than singing/dancing to execute their show. I remember when I was competing against them in high school, our girls had probably 5 costume changes in 1 show, while they were still only using 1 costume (which were handed down from previous years).
The poster in question just seemed to be expressing an opinion about his preferred style of show to me... he even offered that all of the groups in finals were "incredible" and "deserving of high praise." If he's a student of ATSC, then yes, openly gushing about his own choir is a little silly, but I don't think anyone should take personal offense from a comment that does little more than say he feels there are too many bells and whistles in modern show choir.
Seriously though, Häakon, you don't think those are kind of back-handed compliments? It's along the lines of saying no offense, but...and then you're free to say whatever you like because, well, I said no offense was intended.
I would agree with you if they had said, "I prefer a more traditional show choir that doesn't use a lot of props and sets." They didn't do that and instead called the restults into question. There was really just one group at this competition that finished ahead of Omaha that uses a lot of props and theatrics. They were basically calling out Hastings and saying they didn't feel they deserved to place where they did. If they really are from ATSC, then it's just sour grapes.
I know as the person that runs this website you feel discussions should be open and free without any judgment, but it just isn't like that. Things you say on here have real world implications about the way your group is perceived and treated. It's no different than somebody in an Urbandale shirt sitting in the audience bad-mouthing other groups. If it happens (and I pray that it doesn't) it's frowned upon and seen as bad sportsmanship and, in my opinion, it should be.
There's nothing wrong with being proud of your own group. Praise away. I hope everyone involved in show choir is proud of their own group's ability and accomplishments. I do have a problem when people with a dog in the fight come on here to argue that their group's placement was incorrect, which was really the point at the heart of this person's post. Boiled down to its essence this post said, "The judges were wrong. What we do is better and should have been rewarded as such. Props and theatrics are used to cover for a lack of talent....but no offense."
Ok usually the top six groups go on to finals. Which "normally" is the top six 4A groups. Norris competed in a different category(3A) then since the awarded the top six in 4A(usually the ones who go on to make finals) they had to award trhe sixth place even though norris had a higher score. Idk if it makes sense but I tried, as to the judging I feel that ANY of the top six if they do that show six seven years ago they blow all of the other groups out of the water, however since the quality of show choirs has increased so much that the groups are nearly identical(i.e. all have very clean chereo, great vocals, etc.) that now subjectivity has creeped its way into judging, which while a bad thing After watching finals, I was like wow who to pick because all six groups were so good, its just like what do you do. Just my thoughts.
I think the placement information at the top of this page is what may be confusing; the division shows that Jefferson got 6th place and Norris got no placement, which obviously doesn't make much sense since Norris ended up in finals. The issue is that Norris was actually in a different division, and I would love to update that information, but I haven't yet received a proper rundown of who was in what division and how the placements went in order to be able to do that. As soon as someone can provide this, I will be happy to update the page.
i'm from jefferson connection and i'm still confused why we didn't make finals. we were in sixth place but norris had an overall better score? i thought we were IN sixth place BECAUSE we had a better score. can someone explain this to me?
oh, and congrats to urbandale on the win. hastings, i'll see you guys later lol
Ok usually the top six groups go on to finals. Which "normally" is the top six 4A groups. Norris competed in a different category(3A) then since the awarded the top six in 4A(usually the ones who go on to make finals) they had to award trhe sixth place even though norris had a higher score. Idk if it makes sense but I tried, as to the judging I feel that ANY of the top six if they do that show six seven years ago they blow all of the other groups out of the water, however since the quality of show choirs has increased so much that the groups are nearly identical(i.e. all have very clean chereo, great vocals, etc.) that now subjectivity has creeped its way into judging, which while a bad thing After watching finals, I was like wow who to pick because all six groups were so good, its just like what do you do. Just my thoughts.
The poster in question just seemed to be expressing an opinion about his preferred style of show to me... he even offered that all of the groups in finals were "incredible" and "deserving of high praise." If he's a student of ATSC, then yes, openly gushing about his own choir is a little silly, but I don't think anyone should take personal offense from a comment that does little more than say he feels there are too many bells and whistles in modern show choir.
I can't help but feel confused about where the judging of show choir is headed. It seems to be less about the talent and more about the bells and whistles or how loud a group is. I've experienced this at just about all of the competitions I've been to in the last 2 years. All of the finalists from Johnston are incredible groups, all of them deserve to be highly praised, but I have to give a shout out to Omaha Westside for earning their placements on awe-inspiring vocals and show execution rather than loud props and theatrics.
You know the more I think about it, the more this post feels like it was probably made by another Omaha Westside student or parent and not a member of ATSC.
Doran Johnson is a class act and his attention to detail doesn't begin and end on the stage. I'm sure he has discussed with the members of his group how they should comport themselves on this site. I'm going to give the benefit of the doubt and assume this was not an ATSC member, but rather a frustrated fan.
I can't help but feel confused about where the judging of show choir is headed. It seems to be less about the talent and more about the bells and whistles or how loud a group is. I've experienced this at just about all of the competitions I've been to in the last 2 years. All of the finalists from Johnston are incredible groups, all of them deserve to be highly praised, but I have to give a shout out to Omaha Westside for earning their placements on awe-inspiring vocals and show execution rather than loud props and theatrics.
Are you saying that Urbandale uses props and theatrics? Because unless you count putting a couple of boxes on the stage for about 12 measures we don't use a single prop in our show.
I can't help but feel confused about where the judging of show choir is headed. It seems to be less about the talent and more about the bells and whistles or how loud a group is. I've experienced this at just about all of the competitions I've been to in the last 2 years. All of the finalists from Johnston are incredible groups, all of them deserve to be highly praised, but I have to give a shout out to Omaha Westside for earning their placements on awe-inspiring vocals and show execution rather than loud props and theatrics.
it's obvious that you're new to showchoir.com because you are posting praise and compliments for your own choir as if you weren't a part of it. the rest of the world can tell you are because it says that you're a student and what choir you're from. that's so awkward. obviously the only reason you're dissatisfied or "confused" with show choir judging is because your choir doesn't win. when groups do well it IS because of THEIR "awe-inspiring vocals and show execution" (ATSC isn't the only group capable of doing these things). how loud a group is is an extreme aspect of judging. there are plenty of people/choirs that sing beautifully AND loud. it isn't uncommon. as for theatrics and props, they are a part of show choir, they have been and probably always will be.
also - i'm not sure i understand your comment about loud props. i have seen loud props, yes, but this usually detracts from a performance/judging. you make it seem like loud props are what get groups high on the score sheets.
moral of the story: ATSC or anyone affiliated with them isn't "King of the World" despite how much they may want to be or think they are.
Norris was in the 3A category. Jefferson Connection got 6th place in 4A. Norris did not compete in the same category as Jefferson in the daytime competition, but had a higher score, so Norris was chosen for finals.
If you have a list of the groups that were in each division, can you share that please? There seems to be some confusion and clearly our records have not been updated accurately with the information that we have been provided. Thanks in advance.
i'm from jefferson connection and i'm still confused why we didn't make finals. we were in sixth place but norris had an overall better score? i thought we were IN sixth place BECAUSE we had a better score. can someone explain this to me?
Norris was in the 3A category. Jefferson Connection got 6th place in 4A. Norris did not compete in the same category as Jefferson in the daytime competition, but had a higher score, so Norris was chosen for finals.
I was obviously disappointed in how this competition ended. The announcer made it seem like connection made finals, and then contradicted himself later. We had a great critique judge (Randy Sage's teacher!) and we have a ton of ideas to improve our show. BJeff is coming back in full swing at Eau Claire, so watch out!
There was a four way tie for best band, which is super odd, in my opinion. They decided to give it to Hastings after some deliberation, but I think it could have just as easily gone to connection band. I think they're incredible. Our piano player had three of her fingers bandaged up because her sister slammed her hand in a car door. And she still played beautifully.
Great job Hastings, I thought your show was great, I really loved the guys and girls numbers. Congrats Urbandale!
i'm from jefferson connection and i'm still confused why we didn't make finals. we were in sixth place but norris had an overall better score? i thought we were IN sixth place BECAUSE we had a better score. can someone explain this to me?
oh, and congrats to urbandale on the win. hastings, i'll see you guys later lol
I can't help but feel confused about where the judging of show choir is headed. It seems to be less about the talent and more about the bells and whistles or how loud a group is. I've experienced this at just about all of the competitions I've been to in the last 2 years. All of the finalists from Johnston are incredible groups, all of them deserve to be highly praised, but I have to give a shout out to Omaha Westside for earning their placements on awe-inspiring vocals and show execution rather than loud props and theatrics.
I got to see day round except for hastings but this is exactly how i saw this competition playing out. Urbandale was very good as usual. Honestly i was slightly disappointed with Omaha Westside (Idk if it was an off day or something?), as was i with valley. Norris definately stepped it up and im glad to see that they made it into finals. I wish i could've seen finals and hastings but i guess thats what the rest of the season is for right?
Urbandale I am so freaking proud of you guys(even though i spite you at any chance I get, WOOHOO, plus i got to meet two show choir buddies from there woohoo) anyway good jobs to all the groups my thoughts on the groups will come later tomorrow. VA-you guys performed your heart and soul out today but you can't win them all, go back out and get them at urbandale. Norris-freaking love it totally.
Johnston Showzam 2011
