Finally was able to look at the score sheets. One judge ranking Los Al 3rd in visuals and 4th in show is what gave CG the win. The other 4 judges combined were within 0.1 pts of each other.
Yet another reason why scores should be public and available immediately after the performance.
Sorry, but that’s incorrect (: two judges had Los Al in third for visuals, and overall ranking wise, CG and Los Al tied for visuals; Los Al won the visuals tie-breaker. Four out of the five judges had CG in first for vocals. CG and Los Al each got three 1’s for show due to a judge giving a three way tie in show, but CG won in show overall. However, none of that has to do with the final placement; overall placements were separate from show or visuals or vocals. CG received three 1s and two 2s, while Los Al received two 1s and three 2s; it was as simple as that. Center Grove and Los Alamitos both delivered spectacular shows worthy of praise, but at the end of the day, CG did win fair and square, three judges to two. This comp uses consensus ordinal ranking. There was no such slanting of scores by one judge. (:
I wasn't diminishing CG's show. It was terrific (although my personal opinion is that it was just a smidge below Los Al's show).
Here were the judge's rankings (if there were a way to attach a spreadsheet, I would do that, but inputting in the full scores is just too much typing without any good formatting options).
So then what I’m hearing is that WITHOUT Linda Southard’s scores, CG STILL won in raw scoring (if you want to approach it that way - this was a ranked choice scoring, which CG still won regardless) - even by the 0.1 point that it would have been (and with such phenomenal groups, I would expect nothing less - this competition was bound to come down to split hairs). If Linda Southard had put Los Al in first for show, none of the results you see on the page above would’ve been different. Nothing would have changed. And when it comes down to it, there will always be scoring or judging decisions that you may not agree with. But that’s the whole point of the competition! We bring in very qualified adjudicators, such as Linda Southard (who has, by the way, over 30 years of experience as a clinician for Show Choir Camps of America, along with numerous other accolades). Who are we to question their decisions and, ultimately, their score? To suggest “maybe it was too late for her and she wasn’t thinking straight” is a sorry excuse to make as a grown adult on a show choir platform celebrating the incredible efforts of hundreds of hardworking and talented kids. At the end of the night, all we can do is put our trust in these judges as qualified professionals in the show choir field that give their best opinion of these groups for that particular performance, and we leave the rest to the results, and let them speak for themselves (: but yes, I do think public results would be an interesting thing for everyone to be able to see
I must confess I’m not quite sure what the point of all of this bickering is. The competition was three weeks ago, and one would think everyone would have moved on with their lives by now. Whether you think the judges scored it correctly or not, making personal insults or comments about a judge is never acceptable, and the fact that adults are on this forum setting such a poor example for kids never ceases to disappoint me. Center Grove, Los Alamitos, and everyone at WWS that day was wonderful, and I think the fact that the battle for first place came down to a 3-2 vote reflects that (I would also be interested in seeing the full scores, particularly for daytime single gender). Ultimately, this is a fun extracurricular for everyone involved, and most people around the world (and in show choir) ultimately don’t care about this result. Still, if it bugs you that much, Center Grove is supposed to be at HOA Los Angeles next year - if you truly are from the West Coast, go and see them. You’ll see that they (and every other group of kids that does this activity) are amazing, and if you’re still not happy just know that Los Al has a high chance of being there and getting revenge.
Look, I don’t pretend to agree with every judge there is, but Southard’s scores are consistent with the rest of the panel. Everyone else has Los Al in first or second place, and she has them in second. And to top it off, you’re whining about her having Los Al down by four points?
I’ve seen complete screwballs where one judge obviously affected the placement of a group (several where the rest of the panel had a group out of first by five or fewer points and one judge had that group down twenty or more points, and even one where a judge gave someone a 78/250). This doesn’t rise anywhere near that level, and I think this is unnecessarily targeting Linda Southard.
It is painfully obvious to me that one person is choosing to post under multiple accounts, and most people can probably put two and two together and figure out who that is. It's not against the law to be anonymous on the internet, but it's been a pretty long-standing manner of etiquette on showchoir.com that you shouldn't be (and if you just absolutely feel the need, make sure to keep it classy).
When you create multiple fake accounts, you cross the line. When you make posts that give the website a bad name, you start to impact me and the crew who volunteers here. And when you insult one of the most reputable judges in our activity, you're offending the entire community.
All I will say is that these kinds of posts are not doing your program any favors. I know that some people get really defensive about the performance of their own groups, but the constant drum beat of "only we can win or there was some kind of error" is beyond juvenile. Everyone here has acknowledged that all of the choirs involved are some of the absolute best in the country. When any group of choirs go head to head, only one gets to come out on top. Sometimes, your favorite isn't the one who gets picked. That doesn't mean everyone who didn't get first place is "bad," and as it has been pointed out by others, we're discussing a three-week old event with no scoring controversy.
Let Center Grove have their moment. Learn some humility. And for the love of everything, grow a spine and use your real name like the rest of us. If you can't make a post without hiding behind a fake persona, then it's probably a good indication that the comments should probably be left to yourself.
If anyone would like to watch Los Al’s finals performance filmed in higher quality than the live feed (this camera could handle Los Al’s intense lighting so it’s not nearly as dark as the live feed was) , here is a link:
https://youtu.be/zUNKrxrubPk?si=Nkx7hTkdpiEc1Qqd
I think the thing that I love about show choir is how different it is
From the Midwest
To the south
I’m from Cali ( proud Burroughs alumni )
And even our big three out there Burroughs , Burbank and Los Al are all different. I think is time to be grateful that we get to enjoy these amazing groups and schools. Since so many schools are loosing their performing arts programs. We are all one big family let’s start acting like it. People join this community for love and acceptance. For many of the young people on this site. Show choir is the one thing that gets them through school. If that’s bullies . Personal struggles . Home issues . Maybe we should all be. A lot kinder when discussing results. To any center grove performers I’m sorry if anything that has been said since Wheaton has hurt you. And I’m sorry you guys can’t enjoy your victory without people stepping on you. #wearefamily
This is so well said. The show choir community is a family. You can be disappointed that the group you wanted to win lost, but don't be a jerk about it. The family bond and sportsmanship are big reasons that I fell in love with show choir and stuck with it even through covid and tough times personally. We are all here to share a piece of art and something that took hours upon hours to perfect. Support each other, be kind to each other. You can be disappointed in the results without being a jerk about it our putting the other groups down. To center grove and Los Al's, you guys both did amazing. Keep up the amazing work the rest of the season!
A thing that gets lost with these huge competitions are the personal stories of performers. I talked with performers from a few Indiana and Illinois groups that shared their experiences from this massive national competition. From Zionsville's 3 AM performance to emotional warm up rooms, I encourage you to check this piece out on what these groups do on competition day to be prepared to deliver an unforgettable performance. Check it out here.
Both choirs put on amazing shows and each one of them affected the audience in different ways. CG's powerful sound was spectacular, their costumes were stunning and the final act was perfectly executed and hilarious (hats off to King George!). Los Al was visually mesmerizing, incorporating unbelievable choreography with incredible vocals in a story that was so emotionally riveting that it brought the audience to tears. They were so different, but both were beautiful to witness. If there was ever a time to award Co-Grand Champions, this was it! I am just so grateful to have been in the room where it happened. Bravo!
Can we agree that Los Al has much better vocal style than CG? CG has a great, large, traditional choral tone, but lacks style. Both groups that have even been close to beating them this year have had much very vocal styles in my opinion, and sometimes that matters more then other factors.
See I also love Los Al; however, claiming that CG doesn’t match style is blatantly wrong. CG has clear stylistic differences in their singing. Even in just their opener they switch from a lovely choral tone to a powerful belting and pop style after a single dance break. Obviously, this isn’t the only change. CG very clearly knows what they are doing; they’ve been a national powerhouse for decades. Every song adheres to the style called for by the genre of music. I’d encourage you to watch the show again and really pay attention to the intentionality the group has. Better yet, if you can, try your best to watch them in person - it’s a truly magical experience. But don’t take my word for it: look at the judges panel. Every one of those members are extremely qualified, likely more qualified than all of us in the comments combined. They made a (very difficult) decision informed by decades of combined experience. I choose to value their more knowledgeable opinion.
Can we agree that IUJSOM26.MusicEd is NOT a "VOC DAD" associated with Keller Central?
I usually try not to respond to troll accounts, and am definitely not wading into the Los Al VS CG argument seen here (both are clearly top ensembles in the nation!)... but... this quote bothers me:
"Both groups that have even been close to beating them this year have had much very vocal styles in my opinion, and sometimes that matters more then other factors."
That may be your opinion... however, the "stylistically appropriate" / "vocal style appropriate to music" category is commonly 10 points (sometimes just 5) out of 70-100 points on the vocal side of the score sheet showing that it indeed does not matter more than other factors.
Can we agree that IUJSOM26.MusicEd is NOT a "VOC DAD" associated with Keller Central?
I usually give people the benefit of the doubt, but when the username is a common acronym for the Indiana University Jacobs School of Music, a place that many a show choir alum go, commenting deeply on stuff that has nothing to do with Texas, I have a hard time believing that this account is acting in good faith.
If you forget the other group close to beating them was Carmel who swept the indy circuit last season and went 4/5 this year, CG also has to contend with vocal and choreo groups like FC who just won Hoa Nashville and Zionsville and NC who all go out and give fantastic vocal performances. The Indy circuit works extremely hard on Vocals and the members of CG choirs are some of the absolute best educated students in the circuit. They spend hours on vocal pedagogy and music theory to attain the level that brought them to this place in their season. While no doubt Los Al was fantastic and blew me away to say that CG has no style, it is not just ridiculous to the work they put in but to their circuit mainstay who also force that level of vocal work out of them. I love both choirs and both were almost perfect on that night, I know the work both put in was deep and I am tired us us arguing about the different styles, CG has shown the clutch ability in finals all season and so I was not shocked they did it again. Appreicate and love both styles and for the sake of all that got to see the masterpices I will not spend more time arguing that one deserved more recognition.
Well said, Jim! I think your statement about the Indy circuit is further supported by the fact that the top 2 spots in single clef were taken by Indy area groups. Iron sharpens iron.
Los Al and Center Grove are two completely different products. Either one winning vocals passes the eye test (err ear test?) because they both sang really well. I personally preferred Los Al in finals for vocals, visuals, and show design, but that’s just an opinion. It doesn’t mean Los Al was better.
Wheaton Warrenville South Choral Classic 2024
