Sort of interesting, that Linn Mar won the prep division over Valley, but Valley got a spot in finals over Linn Mar, from what people said was that the band score didn't count for prep division, but does count for overall finals? I am not 100% positive but the CR Prairie director announced they had checked and rechecked, and called someone, to verify scoring, and that is how it worked.
This happened last year at Urbandale. Click the link to see how it went down for them; it really put them in a tight spot.
Essentially, their consensus rankings system came up with one group on top in the prep division, but another group when determining the top 6 scores all day. Pretty odd, considering this method usually helps prevent unfair judging scenarios.
I think the only unfair scenario is telling your students that the group you beat gets to move on and you get to go home. There is no explanation possible that could convince the students otherwise. Obviously this method has failed.
This can happen when you consider only prep division group rankings to determine the prep winner, but look at all group rankings when determining the finalists. These are two distinct data sets and can lead to different results. As a contest director you have to decide "Do I want to compare only prep groups to each other to determine the prep winner, or do I want to compare the prep groups to all groups to determine the prep winner?" It's a philosophical question that has valid arguments on both sides. In the end, Prairie used the methodology they said they would use, and the result is valid...though understandably frustrating to impacted groups.
Prairie ran a great event. Everyone was polite and helpful. I appreciated that Prep groups got a chance to earn best band, visuals, and vocals within the prep division. So comparing only prep groups in determining the prep rankings seems to make a lot of sense. I also appreciate that all mixed groups both varsity and prep were able to compete for finals. If on the rare occasion you end up with the 2nd place prep finisher making finals over the 1st place due to their fantastic band, so be it.
Ordinal consensus is all about seeing who has the most 1st places. It’s not necessarily a direct comparison of the groups. When you determine a place (10th St in first, for example) their ranks get dropped, and then the system looks for who then has the most first place votes.
It sounds like the issue here was when you only compared the prep group’s ranks In Step won. When you include 4A, 3A, women, etc. you are comparing against more groups. If it’s close at all the rankings may be very jumbled, and ties happen. Could’ve been a judge putting West Liberty higher than In Step, which would give them the 1st place rank from that judge when you start looking at who is 5th/6th overall. It also looks like Ignition won Best Band, so their rank from the band judge could’ve been very high, which would also make Ignition place higher, when compared with all groups, or put them in a tiebreaker scenario which secures their spot in finals. I don’t know for sure.
This is a flaw of the system. Personally, I don’t think any system is 100% foolproof. This happened multiple times last year, and has already happened this year. But this is another reason why I try to make all scores transparent. We can have discussions about the systems we use and which work the best. I agree with Storm that Prairie stuck to the rules they had in place before the competition, and I commend them for that! It really gets sticky when you try to create new rules to get the result “people” may want.
Oh, without question the Prairie director said they checked, rechecked, then actually called the person "running" the system, (started with a P) before they went with the results, so there is NOTHING on Prairie. Was just sort of an odd turn of events. When Ignition was announced as a finalist, and there weres some very nervous groups, because with 6 teams in the "open" division, and the 2nd place team from Prep making it, most assumed that 2 preop teams would make it, and everyone wondered which 2nd open team was out. But we all now know how it turned out.
I'd love to hear a little more elaborate explanation of Storm's example, "Do I want to compare only prep groups to each other to determine the prep winner, or do I want to compare the prep groups to all groups to determine the prep winner?"
How does comparing the prep groups only to other prep groups change the position of the prep groups in relation to each other when you also compare them to all of the groups at an event? Mr. Temple's example is why this particular system makes no sense to me at all, but like Jay says, no system is fullproof. This one just seems to have the most nonsensical situations - in the times they happen - whereas others are more straightforward but perhaps also more open to individual judge influence.
It’s because you are not directly comparing the groups. It’s not “this many judges has Group A ahead”, it’s “which group left has the most first ranks.”
You can see an example of this at MoShow last year. If it were just Open Class groups, HHH would’ve made finals. When you add the 3A schools (Mayville) there ended up a 3-way tie when you got to 6th place (meaning all of the Top 5 placing groups ranks had been dropped). Anita then had Mayville first, Dr Kreitzer had HHH first, and Pete Eklund had Marion 1st. It went to the first tiebreaker, which was sum of ranks. Marion had a higher sum of ranks due to Pete having Marion higher than anyone had HHH. So Marion’s sum of ranks was (I think) 1 ranking point higher than HHH, so Marion made finals.
The Urbandale topic from last year also had a point breakdown and explanation. That scenario was complicated between Decatur, Eternal Rush, and Synergy. I believe in that scenario ER won the prep division, but Synergy was the 6th group overall due to high ranks from a judge or two. When you just compared the prep groups, ER had more judges put them 1st, over Synergy. But when you looked at those two prep groups with Decatur, Decatur took away some of ER’s first rankings, so Synergy had the most first place ranks there.
It’s a complicated system that took me awhile to understand. I was 100% confused about Prairie prelims results last year, because it came down to crazy tiebreakers, and so I had to do a deep dive to understand how the Ordinal Consensus system works.
To be fully honest, personally, I prefer straight points. But it has become a peer pressured norm to have the Ordinal Consensus system in our circuit. And I could help explain this situation better if I had the scores. Alas, I do not, so I’m sorry I can’t fully explain.
I suspect the scoring system is quite flawed. Just counting the number of first place votes is beyond ridiculous. Head to head is the only way. I would love to see the real scores to see how it was done.
GC Linn-Mar "10th St Ed" (BV,BC,BB)
2nd Valley "Choralation"
3rd Iowa City West "Good Time Company"
4th CR Kennedy "Happiness Inc"
5th CR Jefferson "West Side Delegation"
6th Valley Prep "Ignition"
1st Linn-Mar "InStep"
2nd Valley "Ignition" Won BB for overall preps
3rd CR Jefferson "Ovation"
4th Iowa City West "Showtime"
5th CR Kennedy "Protégé"
Prep Women's Div
1st Linn-Mar "HiStyle" They also won BV and BC for overall preps
2nd CR Kennedy "Chanteurs"