oh dang. i would definitely be there. especially with one of my besties moving to Chicago for college next year!!! we're already kinda making plans. haha!!!
I do think it will require some nationwide organization, Ana, to get a real recognized championship off the ground. Any of the companies you mentioned probably could undertake the challenge, but I suspect some school boards and districts will always be suspicious of for-profit events.
Bands of America (BoA) is a division of "Music for All" a nonprofit organization that promotes high school instrumental music in the United States. While they do charge for participation, they have dozens of corporate sponsorships, like Yamaha, REMO, Wenger, to help underwrite costs. Certainly marching bands utilize corporate products (instruments, uniforms, shoes, music, drills, etc) at far higher numbers than show choirs, so the value of sponsorhsip to the corporation is more readily apparent, but there is the purely philanthropic element that could be called upon if the right organization were created. BoA hosts regional competitions and The Grand National Championships each fall as well as other Music for All events throughout the year. The regional contests are not preliminaries or a requirement to participate in Grand Nationals; just pay the entry fee on time and you're in. Of course some good bands do not participate, and some only every few years, mostly due to costs. BoA is also not the only organization that hosts marching band competitions, but I believe they are the largest and recognized as the most credible, and thus a good model to look to for show choir.
But back to FAME for a second...
Our head Tech Dad - the man responsible for getting all our "stuff" cross country - had a great idea. FAME, take note: The Show Choir Cup should be held at whichever FAME comp is closest to the current title holder. Other choirs want it? Come and take it.
September is around the time of our school musical rehearsals, after that comes the time for our Christmas show and special performances for local organizations during the Holiday season. Also, you must remember that Counterpoints is 50% concert choir. As one judge commented last Sunday, we must NEVER forget our concert choir and solely do the show choir, as we'd forget our true roots and reputation.
I'd imagine plenty of other schools running into the same kind of problems; competing with other school groups including the band, orchestra, speech team, theater, sports, etc. for the students they share and times on the school calendar.
Our school has 2 classes- one concert, one show. The show choir class is during the zero hour before school. If you are in the show choir you have to take concert.
I just have to throw in my 2 cents- North Central can you imagine how good you would be if you learned your set in September? Just thinking. Wow!
September is around the time of our school musical rehearsals, after that comes the time for our Christmas show and special performances for local organizations during the Holiday season. Also, you must remember that Counterpoints is 50% concert choir. As one judge commented last Sunday, we must NEVER forget our concert choir and solely do the show choir, as we'd forget our true roots and reputation.
I'd imagine plenty of other schools running into the same kind of problems; competing with other school groups including the band, orchestra, speech team, theater, sports, etc. for the students they share and times on the school calendar.
I just have to throw in my 2 cents- North Central can you imagine how good you would be if you learned your set in September? Just thinking. Wow!
If they learned their set in September, they'd probably get burned out on the material by the time March rolled around. But anyways...back to the topic.
This would not work for some schools, for example North Central, because we don't start learning our set until the middle of january, and we probably would not be ready to compete in a competition of this scale until beginning of march. also, we're just too plain busy with other stuff (i.e. concert music) to have to focus only show choir until April. And so our director wouldn't think twice about declining that offer.
I just have to throw in my 2 cents- North Central can you imagine how good you would be if you learned your set in September? Just thinking. Wow!
This is a great topic and obviously the idea of a true "national championship" competition is something that many of us are hungry for. I also realize that other programs (sports, mostly, but things like cheerleading and drum corps as well) have similar contests where it does work. I think part of the problem is that show choir is a more niche activity; whereas nearly every school in the country has a football team, show choir is vastly more limited in its scope. Because of this, there are far fewer standards in place and many times it doesn't get the attention/respect/resources it deserves.
Scheduling is also a concern, and as much as we'd all "like" the best groups in the country to battle it out together every year, you have to convince every school on that list to make their trip plans (assuming they have the ability to travel in the first place) to the same place and at the same time every year. Logic would say that this should be entirely feasible, but inevitably you'll have the group whose prom is on the competition day or who can only travel over their spring break or whatever, and so this kind of competition never seems to materialize. That being said, if participation is completely voluntary (as opposed to a tournament-style setup where groups compete because they're the top in their bracket), then I suppose that's their own problem. You just might not probably won't get all 30 "dream choirs" to show up as a result.
Another thing to consider is that different schools want different things out of competitive show choir... let's not forget that for many groups, show choir is actually an in-school curriculum class, and in order to justify huge trips there has to be an educational component spelled out clearly as well. Ryan mentioned that "if it is to be a National competition, I think some choirs would see it less as leisure and have no need to be in (chicago) for 4 or 5 days." But for any group who is coming from out of the area, a trip like this would be their major event of the year. Petal took some crazy 96 hour bus ride or whatever it was to Wheaton-Warrenville this year. Think of Burroughs hauling all of their gear halfway across the country just to be able to perform. I think there does have to be an inclusive, multiple-day structure available - whether offered by FAME or not - to make a trip worthwhile to such groups. While the event itself would largely be entertainment for the viewing audience, the trip as a whole has to have more substance for the groups making the trek.
I'm not trying to rain on the parade... I just think that if it was easy, it would have happened by now. Talking about it is a great first step. But what needs to take place in order for something like this to develop is participation by the directors themselves to hash out concerns and ideas and lay the foundation for such an event to occur. I don't think that just labeling one competition "the cup" is enough. I know many directors are members on SCC - even if they only "lurk" - they should really strongly be encouraged to get a dialogue going about the future of our beloved activity. If they don't want to do it in the public realm, there is a faculty forum set up for this very purpose so development and change can happen.
I think show choir has evolved by leaps and bounds in just the last decade alone... let's help it continue to grow and thrive by encouraging those who lead the way to take the next step.
I think we should put together a SCC committee- people from all states. Then build a nationals forum this way- 1st tier state championship, the top 3 choirs move to the 2nd tier- regionals, the top three from there go to the 3rd tier Nationals! States- February, Regionals- March, Nationals- April.
This would not work for some schools, for example North Central, because we don't start learning our set until the middle of january, and we probably would not be ready to compete in a competition of this scale until beginning of march. also, we're just too plain busy with other stuff (i.e. concert music) to have to focus only show choir until April. And so our director wouldn't think twice about declining that offer.
Scott, believe me, I hate saying we "can't" or "won't" be able to compete at certain place or at certain times, but that is the reality of our situation, and I would imagine we aren't alone in that. We are very closely monitored by our administration in everything we do, and every cent that comes in and out of our program receives a very critical eye from the front office. We are also limited by only being allowed one fundraiser per year- currently, our yearly fundraiser is the competition we host. The administration also controls how much we can charge our students, for things like costumes and regular season travel, and how much we can ask them to pay to attend a national competition. We are also slaves to the school calendar, which is set by the school well in advance of our schedule planning for show choir- it's not easy getting an administration to grant days off from school.
Scott, do you that a competition of this scale is something FAME (or the folks at Show Choir Nationals or Keynote Arts) would take on? Could it be profitable for them while still being affordable for the number of groups that could potentially be involved? Or would this be something we'd eventually want a "governing body" of show choir to take on?
And I mean no slight to the south or any other region or choir not mentioned. I'm just not familiar with southern choirs. By all means, add your four to my list and let's have a 30-choir competition.
And before everyone scoffs, it can be done. Bands of America has 90 bands at their Grand National Championships every fall. 40-some compete Thursday, the other 40-some compete Friday, the top 10 from each day advance to sem-finals on Saturday morning, along with the next 10 or so highest scoring bands from either Friday or Saturday. 12 bands make the finals Saturday night.
Don't forget there are economies-of-scale involved where the more choirs participate the less the cost to each choir could be. The cost to rent a venue for a day or two is the same whether 5 groups participate or 20. If hotels were assured they would be completely full for a weekend, as opposed to just the rooms for one or two choirs, they'd be falling all over themselves offering deals.
Who else from the South belongs on that list, Cody?
Scott-
I certainly was not trying to bash you, or your list. I think it's probably one of the best I've seen put together to this point, and I completely understand the point to what you're saying. I've long thought the same thing; if FAME is already trying to hold a "Championship" type competition with the Cup, why not try to coordinate as many of the best groups possible to compete for it, and give us the closest thing to a true National Championship as possible? With the right people in the right places on SCC, it's a very achievable goal. Unfortunately, for the time being, our current economy may yet slow some of those groups down who deserve to be there.
I certainly won't say that, outside of Attaché, there is another Southern group that could make anyone's Top 10 National list. However, if we're talking about an actual national competition, with the Top 30 or so groups, you have to at least give groups like Petal, Albertville, South Jones and Opelika a look. Certainly two or three of these groups could be considered just as talented, if not more so than some of the listed choirs.
Let me be clear, though, that I mean no disrespect to any of the choirs that are on your list. All are no doubt phenomenal, and have earned their place to be on the list as well. Just trying to get a keep the regional scale from tipping too far, that's all. lol
Ryan Shapiro and Kevin Douglas seem to be the only people to get the point of this thread, which was to suggest "hey, you're all going to a so-called 'national' competition anyway, why not go to the same one?" FAME EVENTS has created the Show Choir Cup. It will be in Chicago next year. That's all. With a little coordination, and a large enough roster of competing groups, FAME Chicago could really be the closest thing to a national championship there is. Nothing was elitist or self appointed. Anyone could name a choir they'd like to see compete with the list I came up with. I came up with a list that I would like to see there; what's yours? I don't even know where or if Burroughs is going next year, but if a strong roster of groups is going to Chicago, I know I'll rally for The Cup. Fascinating how almost everyone seems to want to say how things can't, won't, or even shouldn't happen.
I think one thing everyone needs to bear in mind is the reality that FAME is a business!
The service they provide certainly benefits show choir, but at the end of the day, they have employees to pay, and a profit to make- especially if they want to continue existing. Even show choir competitions held at high schools as a fundraiser have a cost to them- imagine that on a slightly bigger scale.
I really have no idea how much of a profit FAME is really making- if any- especially when you take into account the costs of running a competition. It's much easier when your entire staff is volunteering, and you can solicit donations from local benefactors, etc. People aren't quite as eager to donate time or money to a for-profit business.
I'm sure one of their biggests costs is renting out some of the spaces they use, and the costs to pay the union workers at these theaters. I know FAME uses at least a couple locations where they have little control over who the staff working the lights, sound, and backstage areas is, and how much they can pay them. We go to competitions where the sound and lighting is done by parent and student volunteers. Again, not much of a cost to that. There are also a (shrinking) number of competitions who have parents do the filming and assembling of the DVDs. Is this quality even close to the quality of the FAME DVDs? Usually, no. There is a cost to hiring a company to do that. There's a cost to printing full color programs, even if they are smaller than the programs sold at local competitions. They also print them without the aid of local advertising, and ads from parents of the host show choir- what we make from those two things usually cover the cost of printing.
While the sound and lighting isn't always perfect, we've had mostly really positive experiences at FAME competitions with that- far better than some experiences we've had at high schools with volunteers running the boards. I think the sound and lighting at FAME Chicago has been great all three years I've attended as a spectator, and it was great at the Cup in 2005 and 2001. I didn't feel FAME New York's sound was great in 2006, but it was clearly good enough for a number of groups who went that year to go back and subject themselves to it again (John Burroughs, North Central, Chula Vista, Burbank have all gone back).
FAME also has costs that any competition does- flying in all or some of their judges, putting them up in hotels, and feeding them- I know that many local competitions, at least in our area, try to use at least a few judges from the area, to cut down on this cost. FAME doesn't always have opportunities to do that if they're trying to bring in a panel that is well-versed in show choir adjudication. 5-6 tickets to New York from various places around the country can add up.
There's also the cost of getting the entire staff for the competitions to and from each location- they need to be there in time to set-up, and they need to stay after to take everything down and make sure all groups get home safely. They also have a number of items they need to transport to and from each competition. When you run your own competition, you're usually doing it close enough to home that you don't need to get a hotel for three-four nights for all of the people who will be working there, and spend extra money to get all your stuff there.
I know for many local competitions, concessions is the biggest area for profit. FAME doesn't really offer concessions- in Chicago, what was offered was sold by the theater- even if they get a cut of that amount, it's still not nearly as much as being the food providers for an entire day with three meals included. And when they do offer concessions, they usually have to pay to have people there, making and selling those items.
Our admission costs are relatively low (I want to say it's all under $15), but I know our parents have paid $20-25 to get into a competition and stay for prelims and finals- and these are for competitions held in school gyms. Was I terribly happy about paying $40 to watch FAME Chicago? Eh, not really. But do I get why they're charging that much? Absolutely. They want to make money, and they can get away with charging that much. They're a business.
Could they lower their prices? Probably. Will they, especially if there are so many groups willing to go to their competitions every year or every other year, and pay the prices they charge now? Probably not.
It could be more unofficial- people have labeled Chicago 2008 and New York 2009. We just want to put a label on this one early! ha
I know the idea of a national competition has been discussed based on local and regional results. Until each state gets together to limit or create a standard set of competitions based on each choirs location then organizing a regional competition to lead to a state competition- it is just hard to have a true "National Champion".
But hypothetically speaking....
Most states have a state show choir competition- IN, OH etc. If the choirs aggreed that the money raised at the competition would be awarded to the top 3 choirs at each state competition to help them attend the show choir cup in Chicago 2010(for example) then...
Chicago would still be too early for most choirs to compete on a local level, hold a state show choir competition and still make plans to travel to Chicago, Illinois. Even more FAME would just have to assume that 3 spots from each state would be represented-without having any confirmation or money to begin planning for such a large event.
FAME could, however, lower the pricing considerably, perhaps offering just a performance package for groups instead of the $450+ per person. For example a higher registration, with the option of choirs arranging thier own lodging and entertainment. If it is to be a National competition I think some choirs would see it less as leisure and have no need to be in (chicago) for 4 or 5 days.
SO then lets say that each state that has a state competition would send three representitives. For example - IN, OH, IA, IL, WV, CA then a few states that have a large number of choirs just not a state comp. - VA, AL, MS, Nebraska. CORRECT ME IF IM WRONG!
18 choirs from the 6 states would be assumed. FAME would then have to hold open spots for choirs without state level competition maybe 12. 30 choirs would have to be over two days in a very large venue.
So there is your hypothetical challenge FAME, Show Choirs of America, Music Educators Association!
If not- ill find the sponsors and do it! hahaha...im kind of serious
There you go again Scott. Who's to say who is and isn't a "realistic contender". Sounds pretty elitist to me.
Let's be real... You can pick out a few of the best groups of next year right now. They don't have to be the BEST groups. They only have to be very good. There are select groups that you can count on.
FAME Chicago 2010
I'm such a chatty cathy sometimes!
