QUOTE (juliofrommississippi @ Jun 07 2010, 08:11 AM)
Yah but who would give up all those students and that talent pool at NC? lol
I know, right? I sure wouldn't. I'd stay just for the facilities...I remember when the East Noble Thespians/show choirs went down to North Central to see Aida in Fall 2008, we were in awe enough to see the auditorium. The show was just a bonus.
A lot of it is high-quality directors...I would bet a lot of money to say that either Shelley or Pat could go somewhere else, and given a few years, could create another high-quality program where previously none existed.
Yah but who would give up all those students and that talent pool at NC? lol
The Indiana Department of Education site lists DeKalb as having 1269 students, and East Noble as having 1203, both in the 2008-2009 school year.
To be honest, I don't think it really matters...there are many schools larger than both DeKalb and East Noble that are far worse, and schools with far fewer students(I'm looking at you, Churubusco ) that have very good choirs.
A lot of it is high-quality directors...I would bet a lot of money to say that either Shelley or Pat could go somewhere else, and given a few years, could create another high-quality program where previously none existed.
lets not forget that state has only been around since 2005, and directors like Pat Wiehe and Shelley Johnson have been leading their groups to grand championships for more than 20 years...an accomplishment that is to be commended!
Ok. The last time that I checked, ISSMA board consists of quite a few music educators that compete out on the show choir circuit. To suggest that a couple of directors are getting "special privileges" because they belong on the board is OFFENSIVE!
Have you checked the history/traditions that each director/groups carry? it's EXTENSIVE! AWARD WINNING! And all of that comes from being great educators and KNOWING to surround themselves with a great staff and support system and having dedicated students! EARNED TITLES! THAT'S RIGHT! EARNED TITLES! With lot's of "BLOOD , SWEAT, AND TEARS!" And a COMPLETE understanding on how to play the show choir game! NOTHING MORE AND NOTHING LESS! It's ok to have a fav group or show! But , to DOWNGRADE a directors/groups achievements and a ABILITY to produce QUALITY work year after year is APPALLING!
Each director has given well over 30yrs of their life to music education. These directors should be CONGRATULATED !
You can hire the best costumer, choreographer,arranger but, if the director does not know how to produce a show or know how to coach and motivate-they'll forever have just an average choir!
You can be a fabulous singer and not being able to teach vocals. You can be an exquisite dancer but, that does not mean that you can be a choreographer! If you look back into show choir history, you'll notice , with a few exceptions..., the groups that were on top in the 70's,80's,90's,remain today! And that isn't by accident!
Amen Woody. And let's not forget that everyone on the ISSMA board is there because they earned it. All the directors on the board were qualified and very good before getting on the board. They're on the board because they won, not the other way around.
QUOTE (juliofrommississippi @ Mar 27 2010, 03:17 AM)
That's illegal in Iowa.
...and it's not in Indiana.
As I recall from the discussion that happened a few weeks ago when this was brought up, this is a rule in Iowa because in Iowa women's groups are usually considered prep groups, while in Indiana they are usually considered championship groups on the same level as the main mixed choir. Therefore, in Iowa its bringing members from varsity into prep and making an unfair advantage, while in Indiana it's using the talent you have. God only knows the talent we would lose from both of our groups if the six or seven girls that are in both next year had to pick one or the other.
Finally, congratulations to my friend Tess H., the lone crossover between Counterpoints and Descants, and the only NC singer to have won TWO GCs at Large School Finals last weekend!
Mr. Holland's "opus" (God, I love that he wrote a long post!) is very well taken. In interest of disclosure - but not to suggest any unfairness - he is the choreographer for North Central and other groups.
However, in the further interest of both accuracy and fairness, NC choral director Ms. Wiehe is NOT listed on the ISSMA board this year. She is assigned to a committee position (Concert Organization), but not the Show Choir Committee. Ms. Johnson is on the Show Choir committee, but so is Hersel Cremeans, who had the unenviable task of disqualifying North Central on a contest rule earlier this season.
And though four of the five persons on the Show Choir Committee are associated with groups that competed at State Finals, that is hardly unusual. Were the politics of show choir as rampant as often suggested, it might only raise an eyebrow that Dan Hile's Churubusco group did NOT compete at finals this year. Mr. Hile obviously does not yet know how to play the game (and anyone who takes that comment as anything other than a weak attempt at a joke...)
Finally, congratulations to my friend Tess H., the lone crossover between Counterpoints and Descants, and the only NC singer to have won TWO GCs at Large School Finals last weekend!
Ok. The last time that I checked, ISSMA board consists of quite a few music educators that compete out on the show choir circuit. To suggest that a couple of directors are getting "special privileges" because they belong on the board is OFFENSIVE!
Have you checked the history/traditions that each director/groups carry? it's EXTENSIVE! AWARD WINNING! And all of that comes from being great educators and KNOWING to surround themselves with a great staff and support system and having dedicated students! EARNED TITLES! THAT'S RIGHT! EARNED TITLES! With lot's of "BLOOD , SWEAT, AND TEARS!" And a COMPLETE understanding on how to play the show choir game! NOTHING MORE AND NOTHING LESS! It's ok to have a fav group or show! But , to DOWNGRADE a directors/groups achievements and a ABILITY to produce QUALITY work year after year is APPALLING!
Each director has given well over 30yrs of their life to music education. These directors should be CONGRATULATED !
You can hire the best costumer, choreographer,arranger but, if the director does not know how to produce a show or know how to coach and motivate-they'll forever have just an average choir!
You can be a fabulous singer and not being able to teach vocals. You can be an exquisite dancer but, that does not mean that you can be a choreographer! If you look back into show choir history, you'll notice , with a few exceptions..., the groups that were on top in the 70's,80's,90's,remain today! And that isn't by accident!
You hit the nail right on the head Woody, thanks for that.
Ok. The last time that I checked, ISSMA board consists of quite a few music educators that compete out on the show choir circuit. To suggest that a couple of directors are getting "special privileges" because they belong on the board is OFFENSIVE!
Have you checked the history/traditions that each director/groups carry? it's EXTENSIVE! AWARD WINNING! And all of that comes from being great educators and KNOWING to surround themselves with a great staff and support system and having dedicated students! EARNED TITLES! THAT'S RIGHT! EARNED TITLES! With lot's of "BLOOD , SWEAT, AND TEARS!" And a COMPLETE understanding on how to play the show choir game! NOTHING MORE AND NOTHING LESS! It's ok to have a fav group or show! But , to DOWNGRADE a directors/groups achievements and a ABILITY to produce QUALITY work year after year is APPALLING!
Each director has given well over 30yrs of their life to music education. These directors should be CONGRATULATED !
You can hire the best costumer, choreographer,arranger but, if the director does not know how to produce a show or know how to coach and motivate-they'll forever have just an average choir!
You can be a fabulous singer and not being able to teach vocals. You can be an exquisite dancer but, that does not mean that you can be a choreographer! If you look back into show choir history, you'll notice , with a few exceptions..., the groups that were on top in the 70's,80's,90's,remain today! And that isn't by accident!
Well said Woody! We should be talking about how to fix this system for the future, to attract more groups, instead of downgrading groups and directors that have beaten us in the past. Is the system perfect? No... But, I can appreciate that ISSMA is trying new things every year to try and make it better. And, I commend the state committee for their work in establishing a 2 class system so that many more groups can have a chance to compete against schools their size, and also to attract schools to this activity!
"Sounds like Mr HJA has an issue with "good ole NC" winning state AGAIN, but since you were not there and you asked for comments from someone who was (and saw allh performances) I'll share:"
I'm not saying it's true, but a lot of people have a problem with the fact that Pat Wiehe is on the board, along with Shelley Johnson from dekalb, and no matter what kind of year those groups are having, they win state. Oh, Except when Carmel showed that they are actually the best in the midwest by beating one of NC's best shows, without any trouble. Johnson is pretty much the reason there are 2 classes now, and considering Dekalb used to compete VERY well as a Large Mixed group, placing above groups like FC, MTZ, Ben Davis, Huntington North, Lawrence Central, Sullivan, Sauk Prairie and the like, it seems as though getting 2nd, 3rd, and the occasional GC wasn't enough. Dekalb clenched a state title for the next 5 years bc of their new home in Class B. I would think a group that hasn't missed a finals since 1997 would fight for the chance to compete with the big boys at state, not just take GC every year as a "small group" when Dekalb is far from it...
Ok. The last time that I checked, ISSMA board consists of quite a few music educators that compete out on the show choir circuit. To suggest that a couple of directors are getting "special privileges" because they belong on the board is OFFENSIVE!
Have you checked the history/traditions that each director/groups carry? it's EXTENSIVE! AWARD WINNING! And all of that comes from being great educators and KNOWING to surround themselves with a great staff and support system and having dedicated students! EARNED TITLES! THAT'S RIGHT! EARNED TITLES! With lot's of "BLOOD , SWEAT, AND TEARS!" And a COMPLETE understanding on how to play the show choir game! NOTHING MORE AND NOTHING LESS! It's ok to have a fav group or show! But , to DOWNGRADE a directors/groups achievements and a ABILITY to produce QUALITY work year after year is APPALLING!
Each director has given well over 30yrs of their life to music education. These directors should be CONGRATULATED !
You can hire the best costumer, choreographer,arranger but, if the director does not know how to produce a show or know how to coach and motivate-they'll forever have just an average choir!
You can be a fabulous singer and not being able to teach vocals. You can be an exquisite dancer but, that does not mean that you can be a choreographer! If you look back into show choir history, you'll notice , with a few exceptions..., the groups that were on top in the 70's,80's,90's,remain today! And that isn't by accident!
"Sounds like Mr HJA has an issue with "good ole NC" winning state AGAIN, but since you were not there and you asked for comments from someone who was (and saw allh performances) I'll share:"
I'm not saying it's true, but a lot of people have a problem with the fact that Pat Wiehe is on the board, along with Shelley Johnson from dekalb, and no matter what kind of year those groups are having, they win state. Oh, Except when Carmel showed that they are actually the best in the midwest by beating one of NC's best shows, without any trouble. Johnson is pretty much the reason there are 2 classes now, and considering Dekalb used to compete VERY well as a Large Mixed group, placing above groups like FC, MTZ, Ben Davis, Huntington North, Lawrence Central, Sullivan, Sauk Prairie and the like, it seems as though getting 2nd, 3rd, and the occasional GC wasn't enough. Dekalb clenched a state title for the next 5 years bc of their new home in Class B. I would think a group that hasn't missed a finals since 1997 would fight for the chance to compete with the big boys at state, not just take GC every year as a "small group" when Dekalb is far from it...
I never knew she was on the board I know LC's old choreographer is like head or something like that (or she was) but I HOPE that is not a real reason that they've one outside of when Carmel did when an I love nC but they can't touch carmel dance technique or vocal technique i mean be real. However, lI do agree with Dekalb they made finals in 2006 just over LC but almost didn';t due to another contest (HN i think) they are really good and I think they should fight to paly with the big dogs them and Plainfield as well.
I can appreciate the new classes, because it allows a lot of smaller groups that are good but that aren't competitive with the Indy schools to compete in finals with groups that are similar to them. I still wish that the classes didn't exist, but it isn't a huge problem with me. But DeKalb should not, should NOT, be in with small school ANYTHING. Luers and Plainfield were competitive with them this year, but it seems even with real competition that judges just like DeKalb's style of show, which is fine, whatever, they're still an awesome choir and they're still really good at it, but for the foreseeable future I see it being DeKalb winning and everybody else fighting for second-ninth, and I feel that such results are NOT acceptable. DeKalb can and has gotten in the top three groups in the state, before classes, back when there were more groups that came to state. I would think they would feel inclined to fight for the same and even better results, rather than just winning over the small half of the state. There's much more honor in the former, IMHO.
I believe DeKalb is the same size as East Noble are they not?
Indiana State Large School Finals 2010
I'd stay just for the facilities...I remember when the East Noble Thespians/show choirs went down to North Central to see Aida in Fall 2008, we were in awe enough to see the auditorium. The show was just a bonus. 
