QUOTE(cardinalsinger06 @ Feb 4 2008, 01:02 PM) [snapback]416302[/snapback]
Certainly not me! haha... Never in the many years I've competed there and now watching as an alum has so much discussion arose from this small competition, especially coming from groups that weren't there (not that I'm saying anything is wrong with this).
As to the previous post with the quote talking about one judge's score not affecting the overall score very significantly, I would have to disagree also. I know that I am no expert in this area but, for instance, just look how much closer Mayville would have been to Sauk Prairie if that sixth judge would have given them a 1 instead of 6. Just a thought....
Anyway, I was at this competition and can say for once in my show choir life that I predicted the exact outcome of the results, along with a few other people I was with. Not that that means anything, but in my eyes I saw the judging at this competition quite fair, just as past years have been. So even with a judge affiliated with one of the choirs, I give props to New London for picking a judge that was fair in that sense, and to Mr. Jones.
But congrats to ALL of the groups there, especially Sauk and Mayville!! I know some of you Mayville kids might have been a little disappointed not to win another GC but you've had one of the best seasons in Mayville "Cardinal Singer" history! And as we've always said, getting beat by Sauk Prairie is NOTHING to be ashamed of.... they're a fantastic group, always have been and I'm sure always will be. So again, congrats you guys!!
Actually, you prove two of my points and I thank you!!
First, even if that judge placed you first and Sauk second the rankings stay the same. Now if there were an alliance with two judges... disaster
Second, ranking or ordinals are not great ways to score the finals because it makes it appear closer. If it were scored the point difference would most likely be bigger than just an ordinal difference.
And I still insist, Judges should always be known not hidden.
I really hope Mayville is not disappointed or ashamed. Mayville, you have to be credited with some of the best intent and energy on stage. You perform and it shouldn't matter where you place.
QUOTE(tscott @ Feb 4 2008, 01:13 PM) [snapback]416270[/snapback]
Knowing someone is a far cry from judging your own work. Even if not specifically indicated on a score sheet, content - what the choreographer created - is part of a choreography score.
I don't know Rob Jones, I don't know if he was fair or not. The point is, contest officials should never allow someone who was part of creating a competing choir's show serve as a judge.
We were to a competition a couple of years ago, where one of the judges was choreographer for the host school and also 2 of the competing schools. Funny they all made finals and her prelim scores were the highest.
I know Mr. Jones and he is a person of integrity and fairness and if he felt he had a conlict he would make it known as she stated he did have ties to one group. Obviously New London had no problem with it, why should anyone else.
QUOTE(Jorge @ Feb 4 2008, 11:51 AM) [snapback]416281[/snapback]
Who would have thought little ole' New London would be the hot bed of so much discussion?
Certainly not me! haha... Never in the many years I've competed there and now watching as an alum has so much discussion arose from this small competition, especially coming from groups that weren't there (not that I'm saying anything is wrong with this).
As to the previous post with the quote talking about one judge's score not affecting the overall score very significantly, I would have to disagree also. I know that I am no expert in this area but, for instance, just look how much closer Mayville would have been to Sauk Prairie if that sixth judge would have given them a 1 instead of 6. Just a thought....
Anyway, I was at this competition and can say for once in my show choir life that I predicted the exact outcome of the results, along with a few other people I was with. Not that that means anything, but in my eyes I saw the judging at this competition quite fair, just as past years have been. So even with a judge affiliated with one of the choirs, I give props to New London for picking a judge that was fair in that sense, and to Mr. Jones.
But congrats to ALL of the groups there, especially Sauk and Mayville!! I know some of you Mayville kids might have been a little disappointed not to win another GC but you've had one of the best seasons in Mayville "Cardinal Singer" history! And as we've always said, getting beat by Sauk Prairie is NOTHING to be ashamed of.... they're a fantastic group, always have been and I'm sure always will be. You guys gave everything you had, heart and soul, on stage during finals and we couldn't have been more proud watching you!! So again, congrats you guys!!
QUOTE(MVshow choir @ Feb 4 2008, 11:42 AM) [snapback]416280[/snapback]
TScott and Ana are right on this one. " border="0" alt="online2long.gif" />
We see results every year (perhaps even every weekend) where one judge has swayed the outcome.
I never said that it would not sway an outcome. I said it would not make a big difference. Of course, every judge makes an impact. That is what competition is about. It is all about perspective. I think everyone is getting too excited
I personally have not been to a competition where a person involved with a show choir has obviously put them ahead of another group. Does it happen? Im sure somewhere it has and that is wrong. How to stop it? In the perfect world Ana is right. It should be avoided. When you bring up the schools you mentioned and how they went out of their way to avoid it, I would love to compare the amount paid to, for instance, the Onalaska judges versus to the New London judges. My guess is New London's budget is not on the same scale as many of the schools mentioned and would have a harder time to bring in the same judges. Just a guess, I don't know. We are talking about schools that have a show choir budget that rival what some of the teachers get paid! That is great for them but I would hate to have what is viewed as some of the "smaller" competitions go away because a school can't get judges. Ultimately, if a judge shows an obvious bias, they will not be judging long. Lord knows that news would travel faster than a peel off on this website " border="0" alt="laugh.gif" />
I don't think you trying to challenge anyones integrity either. However, from an outside perspective when you wrote the comment with the scores listed above, I did jump to the conclusion that the one 2nd was given by the judge in question. I would assume that Mr Jones also thought others may think that and is why he responded. I don't believe he was responding directly to any particular person, but to all the others who may jump to a wrong conclusion. He was ultimately, put in a situation where he had to defend his honor.
TScott and Ana are right on this one. " border="0" alt="online2long.gif" />
QUOTE
Seriously, one judge would not make that big of difference as long as there is a whole panel of judges. An alliance or pact is what affects the scores.
We see results every year (perhaps even every weekend) where one judge has swayed the outcome.
Like I said, I'm not questioning integrity, nor am i about to get into a discussion about it. Rob, I do think it's great that you came on here, but know that it was not my intention to put you in a position where you felt it necessary to defend your honor.
And yes, it is just show choir. But a group only does what, 4- 6 competitions a season? With costs for each competition ranging from $250 to $8,000 or more (yes, trips can cost that much), added onto the costs of putting a show together and getting it performance ready, there is a considerable amount at stake financially. Why not add in the money students spend on meals, and the money parents spend on gas, lodging, meals, and admission costs to go and support their kids? And let's not forget that students, parents, and directors have put in countless hours of work- all for a handful of competitions and a few extra performances.
Sure, it's just show choir- but everyone involved seems to be putting a lot of time and money and effort into something that we're supposed to remind ourselves is fairly insignificant.
So yes, what I'm saying is that when a competition keeps people with direct conflicts on the panel, it isn't fair to anyone- and i stand by it. The solution is usually as simple as pulling that person as a judge- we've done it at our competition several times, Johnston did it this year, Viterbo did it this year, Linn-Mar usually does it, Edgewood did it this past weekend, Davenport North has done it, etc. I also know many competitions that will search far and wide to hire judges that do NOT have a conflict- as an example, Onalaska did it this year.
I know, I know... a perfect world doesn't exist- but as you can see, many competitions are doing their best to get as close to that as they can- I just wish more would make the same effort.
QUOTE(tscott @ Feb 4 2008, 10:28 AM) [snapback]416258[/snapback]
Sure it's just show choir.
Now imagine a HS referee or coach saying "It's just a game."
Heck, why not let one of the coaches ref a game?!? There ya go! Or a parent?
Then if anyone questions a call, that person would only have to assure us of their integrity! Brilliant!!
After all it's just a game.
I understand your feelings, Ana. However, I do know that many directors are having a difficult time finding judges because of the amount of competitions going on. It is almost impossible that a Choreographer who judges will not see a choir that they have been involved with in some way. Many directors hire outside for clinicians, cleaners, coaches etc... We would never know if Show Choir XYZ used a cleaner or vocal coach that is now judging them on stage. Are we going to make Directors submit a list of everyone who came into help with the show in some way so that there is a "Do Not Hire" list? Then the poor director will be limited to how many judges they can get which, in my opinion, would skew the scores more and leave it way open for bias and scandal. As Tscott points out, one person who has ultimate control, would alter outcomes. Seriously, one judge would not make that big of difference as long as there is a whole panel of judges. An alliance or pact is what affects the scores. Even if the judge you question flipped the scores and placed DePere 1st and Mayville 5 (just reversing the scores so DePere is on top), it would give DePere 25 and Mayville 23. Thus Making the results Sauk, Broadhead, Mayville, Janesville, De Pere, Reedsburg. No Change for De Pere, still 4rth runner up.
I do not like rankings. I believe it is not a good way to score. I do believe that the judges should be named and not hidden. Anyone watch figure skating? Uggg... that's a whole other discussion board, I know!
Long story longer....One could argue there is no judging panel that is perfect because of natural biases of art. There are fundamentals and techniques that can't be ignored, but when groups master them and perform them equally, it boils down to what moves us and how the show they designed affects us. What did it say to me and how did the performers say it? We all judge in our seats and that is what I ultimately go for. To see what a choir says to me that day, at that moment of time and how it moved me
QUOTE(Jorge @ Feb 4 2008, 10:45 AM) [snapback]416260[/snapback]
...Obviously, in a perfect world, we could try and get judging panels with no ties to anyone. But, it’s pretty next to impossible since it seems everyone knows everyone. Judge’s personal connections to schools are everywhere....
Knowing someone is a far cry from judging your own work. Even if not specifically indicated on a score sheet, content - what the choreographer created - is part of a choreography score.
I don't know Rob Jones, I don't know if he was fair or not. The point is, contest officials should never allow someone who was part of creating a competing choir's show serve as a judge.
QUOTE(tscott @ Feb 4 2008, 12:28 PM) [snapback]416258[/snapback]
Sure it's just show choir.
Now imagine a HS referee or coach saying "It's just a game."
Heck, why not let one of the coaches ref a game?!? There ya go! Or a parent?
Then if anyone questions a call, that person would only have to assure us of their integrity! Brilliant!!
After all it's just a game.
But now you are delving into an entirely new argument. Sports have sets of UNIVERSAL rules and regulations... show choir does not. At some competitions you can use streamers, and some you can't. At some, you are required to have an a cappella portion of a show, and some you don’t need it. Time limits, fog, changing songs from day to night, score sheets, point values of vocals-choreography-band-“other”-show design. It’s all different wherever you go.
As for Mr. Rob Jones. Obviously, in a perfect world, we could try and get judging panels with no ties to anyone. But, it’s pretty next to impossible since it seems everyone knows everyone. Judge’s personal connections to schools are everywhere. At least, at this competition, it happened only with one school. There are sooo many competitions out there that have a major choreographer as a judge, with a lot of his or her groups competing. To me, it speaks to Rob’s integrity to actually come on here, respond to the question, and then break New London’s anonymity in scores to point out his own. When it comes down to it, he had DePere in 5th… along with two other judges. One judge had them in 2nd. Two others had them in 6th.
Sure it's just show choir.
Now imagine a HS referee or coach saying "It's just a game."
Heck, why not let one of the coaches ref a game?!? There ya go! Or a parent?
Then if anyone questions a call, that person would only have to assure us of their integrity! Brilliant!!
After all it's just a game.
Holmen "Midwest Magic" - 201.83
Sauk Prairie "YTBN" - 201.83
Holmen "Midwest Express" - 201.66
Altoona "Locomotion" - 194.50
Western Dubuque "5th Avenue" - 187.99
Green Bay Preble "Center Stage 08" - 183.17
Madison East "Encore" - 178.67
Lodi "Special Effect" - 169.00
Flambeau "Sound Dimension" - 160.50
Altoona "Enginuity" - 145.83
Prelims judges were Dan Risgaard, Lois Cuff, Greg Bell, and Adam Hardt (bands). Critiques were given by Rob Jones and Erin O'Connell.
All four day judges and both clinicians ranked during the finals. The finals was straight (no scores) ranking, using the "less is more" / golf scoring, however names were not assigned to the rankings.
The Spotlighters had a great time at New London. Not only were our student hosts AMAZING, but one of the dads even drove us himself to a music store to buy a new bass drum pedal! Thanks to Lori Flury and all of the New London show choir!
QUOTE(ana @ Feb 4 2008, 12:51 AM) [snapback]416196[/snapback]
Isn't DePere choreographed by Rob Jones? Correct me if I'm wrong on that...
and I don't want to get into an argument of integrity or anything like that, but I have to say- I REALLY hate that competitions allow that to happen. It isn't fair to any of the groups competing, or the judge in question, or really, the entire panel because it skews results.
Having people judge their own groups, no matter what the association is, is one of my least favorite practices- along with allowing judges to talk to each other about groups as they're judging them, and not allowing judges to have ownership of their scores by making them anonymous.
Well, one out of three isn't bad, right?! I hope anyway!
That Is Correct. I choreograph De Pere.
Lori Flury and I discussed this when I was asked to judge. Please do not question my integrity for an instant. The other judges never spoke of De Pere during the day and we never discussed ranking or finals at night. I understand what you are saying could happen but I can assure you Ana, that it did not. I am well aware of the level of performance of my groups and am really proud when they succeed at what they do. However, I also placed them in finals where I honestly thought they should be placed. There were 6 really great groups in finals. If you look at the list of judges rankings mine are the fifth set.
I will always back my scores up. Like it or dislike it, anonymously IS the way New London posts results. Trust me, I understand what you are saying! I also know that your (my) integrity and reputation are everything in this business.
New London had a fantastic competition on Saturday and I was proud to be a part of it! I got a chance to work with 5 other incredible judges who I have a huge amount of respect for.
I may get slack for saying this, but, a really well known and respected Show Choir Director told me this year " When it all boils down to it, it's just Show Choir." This statement has stuck in my head this season. I have taken a long hard look at it and when put into perspective , I understand. And trust me...I DO LOVE SHOW CHOIR!
Isn't DePere choreographed by Rob Jones? Correct me if I'm wrong on that...
and I don't want to get into an argument of integrity or anything like that, but I have to say- I REALLY hate that competitions allow that to happen. It isn't fair to any of the groups competing, or the judge in question, or really, the entire panel because it skews results.
Having people judge their own groups, no matter what the association is, is one of my least favorite practices- along with allowing judges to talk to each other about groups as they're judging them, and not allowing judges to have ownership of their scores by making them anonymous.
Well, one out of three isn't bad, right?! I hope anyway!
Holmen "Midwest Magic" - 201.83
Sauk Prairie "YTBN" - 201.83
Holmen "Midwest Express" - 201.66
Altoona "Locomotion" - 194.50
Western Dubuque "5th Avenue" - 187.99
Green Bay Preble "Center Stage 08" - 183.17
Madison East "Encore" - 178.67
Lodi "Special Effect" - 169.00
Flambeau "Sound Dimension" - 160.50
Altoona "Enginuity" - 145.83
Prelims judges were Dan Risgaard, Lois Cuff, Greg Bell, and Adam Hardt (bands). Critiques were given by Rob Jones and Erin O'Connell.
All four day judges and both clinicians ranked during the finals. The finals was straight (no scores) ranking, using the "less is more" / golf scoring, however names were not assigned to the rankings.
The Spotlighters had a great time at New London. Not only were our student hosts AMAZING, but one of the dads even drove us himself to a music store to buy a new bass drum pedal! Thanks to Lori Flury and all of the New London show choir!
New London Center Stage Invitational 2008
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