You go and watch (and support) earlier show choirs, and find out a few things:
-stage dimensions ,for lack of a better term.
-How the sound system is (if it sucks, if it's top notch, etc...)
-How the acoustics are
This is EXACTLY what our choir was always told. When we got off our bus we were always told "make sure you go in and see a few groups." I know we talked in homeroom about how the sound was in the venue. It was just something that we talked about before going to compete ourselves.
No professional - no matter how experienced and accomplished - would ever play in a venue without a sound check, yet high school kids are expected to do so.
I was totally going to bring this up as well. Could you imagine [insert your favorite band name here] doing a tour and just "winging it" every time they played? The results would be disastrous.
You go and watch (and support) earlier show choirs, and find out a few things:
-stage dimensions ,for lack of a better term.
-How the sound system is (if it sucks, if it's top notch, etc...)
-How the acoustics are
That is true. I know that I always am "scouting" the stage and sending texts about things to watch out for... unless you are at Cuyahoga Falls, then there is no hope lol.
...How are you supposed to know how the acoustics are going to resonate?
You go and watch (and support) earlier show choirs, and find out a few things:
-stage dimensions ,for lack of a better term.
-How the sound system is (if it sucks, if it's top notch, etc...)
-How the acoustics are
This kind of mentality drives me nuts. Let's go to the lowest common denominator so that everything is completely fair... it's like, you might as well have everyone singing the same songs and doing the same moves. If there are disadvantages, regardless if everyone shares them, we should be doing whatever we can to fix them. TRUST me, there have been more than a handful of times that I've sat through a show choir set with my hands over my ears because the balance is so bad. If it was because the band didn't know what they were doing, that's one thing... but if it was because there was a rule barring anyone from communicating with the band and saying "you need to play more softly in this venue" then it was a waste of 20 minutes. Believe me, it would make for a better show and the entire audience would appreciate it.
QUOTE (QualeSPowers @ Feb 22 2010, 07:27 PM)
We were informed today that there is no specific rule regarding someone coming backstage from the audience. The whole thing was evidently a huge misunderstanding. While its too late of course to undo our disqualification, we have been told that our scores from prelims are now going to count towards state qualifications.
And there you have it. "Oops."
How many times do these things have to happen before we fix them?
100% correct. I don't see any point in not allowing someone to communicate "more band" or "less band" so that the preparations of months and months are not destroyed by simply playing too loudly. Especially if it is the first time you've been to a contest. Every gym(for many mid western competitions) is different...way different!
Ana and Haakon are absolutely correct. No professional - no matter how experienced and accomplished - would ever play in a venue without a sound check, yet high school kids are expected to do so. And any efforts to make up for that lack of a sound check are thwarted. In what way is the performing arts education of the students enhanced by this?
One of my least favorite parts about competing was not knowing how we would sound on a given stage. But then again everyone is at the same disadvantage.
This kind of mentality drives me nuts. Let's go to the lowest common denominator so that everything is completely fair... it's like, you might as well have everyone singing the same songs and doing the same moves. If there are disadvantages, regardless if everyone shares them, we should be doing whatever we can to fix them. TRUST me, there have been more than a handful of times that I've sat through a show choir set with my hands over my ears because the balance is so bad. If it was because the band didn't know what they were doing, that's one thing... but if it was because there was a rule barring anyone from communicating with the band and saying "you need to play more softly in this venue" then it was a waste of 20 minutes. Believe me, it would make for a better show and the entire audience would appreciate it.
QUOTE (QualeSPowers @ Feb 22 2010, 07:27 PM)
We were informed today that there is no specific rule regarding someone coming backstage from the audience. The whole thing was evidently a huge misunderstanding. While its too late of course to undo our disqualification, we have been told that our scores from prelims are now going to count towards state qualifications.
And there you have it. "Oops."
How many times do these things have to happen before we fix them?
We were informed today that there is no specific rule regarding someone coming backstage from the audience. The whole thing was evidently a huge misunderstanding. While its too late of course to undo our disqualification, we have been told that our scores from prelims are now going to count towards state qualifications.
This is officially way worse than any scoring mistake I can think of happening in any recent competition. That sucks.
We were informed today that there is no specific rule regarding someone coming backstage from the audience. The whole thing was evidently a huge misunderstanding. While its too late of course to undo our disqualification, we have been told that our scores from prelims are now going to count towards state qualifications.
Oh I agree that the rule is silly, i guess I am just confused as to why all the uproar now. Indiana choirs have dealt with this rule for years and had no issue traveling out side of the state to other competitions and being successful. I just think that my point is that the quality of Indiana choirs isn't hurt because of the rule. Could the quality be better without the rule? maybe. But there are some great choirs in the state that stick to the rule. and to ana, if you listen to the top choirs in indy, you don't have to sit there and fight the urge to go back and talk to the band. why? because they rehearse balance and don't worry about it later. Great choirs will balance well with their band. Rule or no rule.
What Ana said is better than I'll articulate it, but it's also the reason I asked if you guys do soundchecks. If you don't (which is likely and understandable, given time constraints and the number of choirs that have to perform), then you're going into a venue completely blind (or deaf, in this case). How are you supposed to know how the acoustics are going to resonate? The band can play at the same volume in ten different locations and sound ten different ways. How hot are the vocal mics? Is the sound guy riding levels or just "setting and forgetting" them? Without communication from the house to the stage, there's no way to determine the efficacy of the combo in relation to the singers - and no way to compensate accordingly. Moreover, I'd just like to hear what justification there is for such a rule - I can see that it puts everyone on the same "playing field," but at the expense of completely unbalanced shows? That doesn't seem worth it to me.
If rules are in place, and they are broken, then appropriate measures should be taken. But I (like many others) would love to see exactly what this rule is. Just because something is a "rule" doesn't mean it's a good one.
Oh I agree. One of my least favorite parts about competing was not knowing how we would sound on a given stage. But then again everyone is at the same disadvantage. I know many directors in indiana pick competitions based on venue. For instance a lot of choirs won't go to a competition where they have to compete in a gym. At pike, our director would take the time to explain how sound was different in the venue we would be performing and and would let us know what to expect. It would have been nice to be able to adjust in performance, but it's also just a preparation thing.
Ana said it better than I'll articulate it, but it's also the reason I asked if you guys do soundchecks. If you don't (which is likely and understandable, given time constraints and the number of choirs that have to perform), then you're going into a venue completely blind (or deaf, in this case). How are you supposed to know how the acoustics are going to resonate? The band can play at the same volume in ten different locations and sound ten different ways. How hot are the vocal mics? Is the sound guy riding levels or just "setting and forgetting" them? Without communication from the house to the stage, there's no way to determine the efficacy of the combo in relation to the singers - and no way to compensate accordingly. Moreover, I'd just like to hear what justification there is for such a rule - I can see that it puts everyone on the same "playing field," but at the risk of having completely unbalanced shows? That doesn't seem worth it to me.
If rules are in place, and they are broken, then appropriate measures should be taken. But I (like many others) would love to see exactly what this rule is. Just because something is a "rule" doesn't mean it's a good one.
Oh I agree that the rule is silly, i guess I am just confused as to why all the uproar now. Indiana choirs have dealt with this rule for years and had no issue traveling out side of the state to other competitions and being successful. I just think that my point is that the quality of Indiana choirs isn't hurt because of the rule. Could the quality be better without the rule? maybe. But there are some great choirs in the state that stick to the rule. and to ana, if you listen to the top choirs in indy, you don't have to sit there and fight the urge to go back and talk to the band. why? because they rehearse balance and don't worry about it later. Great choirs will balance well with their band. Rule or no rule.
The entire rule of not allowing communication is quite ridiculous. Was this an ISSMA event? If so the DQ totally makes sense and is just another rule that ISSMA made in order to totally control everything in show choir.
The rules at this competition are just like everything in life. You have to adjust to the rules, the laws, the way things are. Yes you can push for change, but if the rule is in place and you break it, you will get penalized. And no, the option of sending someone back and forth from the audience wasn't available to all the groups, as some people from other states are implying, they knew the rules and didn't do that. If there is a rule that says you can't have a full gospel choir backstage to help you sing your ballad, are you going to break that just because it "allows you to put your best foot forward". Nope. Because it's against the rules.
you're missing the point altogether. we're not talking about blatantly breaking the rules in order to gain an advantage. clearly north central didn't know the rule; hence, the disqualification. if someone from ben davis could please post the rule in its entirety that prohibits whatever north central did last saturday, i think that would help in this discussion.
as ana has so eloquently stated, if the rule prohibits communication between those on-stage & off, it's time those restrictions be phased out.
This was an unfortunate circumstance that occurred to NC this weekend but I do agree with Armondo, any group could have done what NC did. In Iowa, most contests refuse to let anyone onstage or offstage after the show has begun. However, most contests allow a member of the performing choir's entourage to sit at the boards and either advise or run the sound board to help balance the sound. Is this not allowed in Indiana?
Jeffreco, you need to associate yourself with a choir and fill in both your first and last name on our member profile. We do not allow anonymous accounts on SCC.
In Ohio, it's something along the lines a representative is invited to sit with the sound board for solo entrances.
I, like usual, have something to say about this, but first, I have a question- is the state rule that NO communication is allowed? No headsets, etc.? Or just no going back and forth physically from the stage to audience area?
I strongly object to the use of the word "fair" being used in this discussion. Of course, rules are rules- if a rule clearly stated is broken at a competition, then the repercussions are to be expected and accepted (which, it seems, North Central is handling the incident with grace and dignity). It seems that no one is arguing what happened on Saturday was wrong, more that this incident has opened our eyes to a rule that seems unnecessary and even harmful to the overall value of performances. References to other groups having the "ability" to do the same thing NC did, are simply stating it's not an issue of fairness in the larger sense. Yes, they broke a rule on Saturday. But, if every group was allowed communication, then it wouldn't create an unfair advantage for anyone- rather, it'd probably be to everyone's advantage- performers, instrumentalists, audience members, judges, etc.
I feel that communication between a person in the audience and a person directing the band should be ENCOURAGED, just as it is now widely encouraged to have a person at the sound board, ensuring sound quality for both soloists, and overall sound.
This isn't about cheating, or having an unfair advantage, or being too lazy to rehearse in such a manner as to achieve the desired balance and blend. We're all aware that these are things we need to be conscious of in rehearsals. We are all well-versed in showing up at a competition, taking stock of the sound in the performance space, and making adjustments or tweaks. I cannot imagine there is a group in this country that just says, 'eh, we don't need to rehearse this- we'll just make sure someone TELLS us if it's going badly on stage.'
I cannot tell you the number of times I've sat in an audience and FOUGHT the urge to run backstage and tell another school's band to bring down the band so we can hear the singers or so that the singers don't feel they need to shout to be heard, or bring them up so the singer/ dancers hear the tempo and settle in to it. I shudder to think of the times I've turned around and watched a sound person miss the beginning or entirety of a solo. If there are simple things to be done that can lessen the likelihood of balance issues, dropped cues, etc., why wouldn't we as an artform and community striving for excellence agree to make those actions allowable, even standard?
I, like usual, have something to say about this, but first, I have a question- is the state rule that NO communication is allowed? No headsets, etc.? Or just no going back and forth physically from the stage to audience area?
I strongly object to the use of the word "fair" being used in this discussion. Of course, rules are rules- if a rule clearly stated is broken at a competition, then the repercussions are to be expected and accepted (which, it seems, North Central is handling the incident with grace and dignity). It seems that no one is arguing what happened on Saturday was wrong, more that this incident has opened our eyes to a rule that seems unnecessary and even harmful to the overall value of performances. References to other groups having the "ability" to do the same thing NC did, are simply stating it's not an issue of fairness in the larger sense. Yes, they broke a rule on Saturday. But, if every group was allowed communication, then it wouldn't create an unfair advantage for anyone- rather, it'd probably be to everyone's advantage- performers, instrumentalists, audience members, judges, etc.
I feel that communication between a person in the audience and a person directing the band should be ENCOURAGED, just as it is now widely encouraged to have a person at the sound board, ensuring sound quality for both soloists, and overall sound.
This isn't about cheating, or having an unfair advantage, or being too lazy to rehearse in such a manner as to achieve the desired balance and blend. We're all aware that these are things we need to be conscious of in rehearsals. We are all well-versed in showing up at a competition, taking stock of the sound in the performance space, and making adjustments or tweaks. I cannot imagine there is a group in this country that just says, 'eh, we don't need to rehearse this- we'll just make sure someone TELLS us if it's going badly on stage.'
I cannot tell you the number of times I've sat in an audience and FOUGHT the urge to run backstage and tell another school's band to bring down the band so we can hear the singers or so that the singers don't feel they need to shout to be heard, or bring them up so the singer/ dancers hear the tempo and settle in to it. I shudder to think of the times I've turned around and watched a sound person miss the beginning or entirety of a solo. If there are simple things to be done that can lessen the likelihood of balance issues, dropped cues, etc., why wouldn't we as an artform and community striving for excellence agree to make those actions allowable, even standard?
This was an unfortunate circumstance that occurred to NC this weekend but I do agree with Armondo, any group could have done what NC did. In Iowa, most contests refuse to let anyone onstage or offstage after the show has begun. However, most contests allow a member of the performing choir's entourage to sit at the boards and either advise or run the sound board to help balance the sound. Is this not allowed in Indiana?
Jeffreco, you need to associate yourself with a choir and fill in both your first and last name on our member profile. We do not allow anonymous accounts on SCC.
If any group had done what NC did, they would have also been DQ'd. The statement doesn't apply to this situation. It isn't that other groups chose not to do what NC did, they aren't allowed to. Had another group done it, it wouldn't result in things seeming more fair, it just would result in another DQ.
Ben Davis Giant Spectacular 2010
